Subject:
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Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 22 Sep 2001 22:13:34 GMT
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Viewed:
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961 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mark de Kock writes:
> Okay, I'm going to jump onto this one just this once...
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Ian Warfield writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Jeff Stembel writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Geordan Hankinson writes:
> >
> > Coming together to help those affected by the attack is a good thing. It
> > fosters a humble, generous spirit.
>
> No God in there if you're not a religious person.
Granted.
> >
> > > In the first case, the vast majority of those people were not in need before
> > > the attack, so why did God need to kill so many to create a need? Why not
> > > create a non-tragic event that would cause people to help those who were in
> > > need *before* the attack?
> >
> > The response would probably not have been as dramatic or as widespread.
> > Sometimes it takes a shattering tragedy to shock people out of complacency.
>
> And all good religious people know this and STILL need this tragical event
> to wake them up?
Yes, unfortunately. Jesus warns against complacency and losing heart.
Being human, we fall short all the time.
It could be for the nonreligious people also. A tragedy like this forces
many to reevaluate their priorities in life and not take things for granted.
The search for meaning often leads them to God.
> > > In the second case, how can killing people without a trial be good? How can
> > > god want this? isn't there a Commandment that says "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?
> >
> > In war, things are slightly different. The commandment actually says "Thou
> > shalt not murder" and I have to assume that in war, killing is not the same
> > as murdering. God in fact commanded many wars in the Old Testament. He
> > would not have commanded the Israelites to violate His law.
>
> Whe quoting the bible, everyone can get his or her right. Check out the Old
> Testament; it's full of contradictions within itself. (Sorry, I'm still in
> the middle of a lot of boxes, so I can't find a bible).
Interpretation can either clarify the issue or muddle it further. In either
case, I think the original Hebrew supports "murder" rather than "kill".
> > In any case, if we do nothing in response, the terrorism will increase. By
> > demonstrating force, we discourage future attacks, and by rendering justice,
> > we stop (or at least slow down or set back) the evil. What would have
> > happened if we had never gone after Hitler?
>
> And with every step we take against terrorism, we should ask ourselves
> several questions. Questions like 'isn't this exactly what the terrorists
> want us to do?' and 'what will be the consequences for THE WORLD? (not just
> the USoA; the whole world is involved here!)'.
True. We need to consider our response carefully.
> > > > Right now I can name a number of good things that God has brought us due to
> > > > this already:
> > > >
> > > > It has brought the nation together,
> > > > It has brought most of the world together
> > > > People have opened up their houses to the people in need and therefore made
> > > > a few new friends, people have learned to appreciate others and be more
> > > > thankful.
> > >
> > > All of which SHOULDN'T take the deaths of thousands to perform. Besides,
> > > why are we only helping the victims, and not people who were suffering
> > > *before* the attack? Wouldn't it have been better to just leave it as it
> > > was?
> >
> > You're right, it shouldn't have taken this tragedy to produce this good.
> > But none of this was happening before the attack. The attack shocked us
> > into action.
>
> Again, this is due to the acts of God, if you are a religious person. To
> others it's just men, behaving like men. Nature at its best: survival of
> (part of) the species.
Again, granted.
> > Even *one* person is merciful. However, you forget that 50,000 people
> > worked at the World Trade Center daily. For whatever reason - they weren't
> > at work yet, they were able to evacute, or they were rescued, 45,000 people
> > were spared.
>
> Tell that to the family and friends of the 5000+ dead.
I know. I don't mean to belittle this tragedy, because it certainly was
horrible.
> > > > -What about the mercy for those who were stuck in a airport and someone
> > > > opened up their house so they would have someplace to stay?
> > >
> > > The Kindness Of Man. Please, give credit where credit is due, and don't
> > > shortchange the good people.
> >
> > All goodness derives from God, but this is a technicality in this
> instance :).
>
> Again, only if you're a religious person. This Goodness in God made him
> decide to kick us out of Paradise? To get palestines kicked out of the
> 'Promised Land'? (Old Testament; not the current events) This goodness of
> God got Goliath killed, because he was a big guy that liked playing with
> little guys?
> Strange acts of kindness.
This was due to God's judgement. God must render justice as well as love.
> > > > -What about the mercy for those who thought they had lost a family member,
> > > > but later found out they were alive?
> > >
> > > What about the tens of thousands more who will never see their loved
> > > ones/friends ever again? Mercy to a few is vindictive.
> >
> > Again, 45,000 people were saved vs. the 5,000 who died. See above.
>
> Again, try to explain that to the families and friends of the 5000+ dead.
Again, a valid reminder of the tragedy. I was pointing out God's mercy to
the 45,000, not belittling the tragedy of the 5,000.
> > > > -What about the mercy for those who were late coming to work that day and
> > > > missed the explosion?
> > >
> > > Blind dumb luck. Happens to me all the time.
> >
> > What if God engineered it?
>
> What if he didn't? These kind of questions makes me stop discussing anything
> where someone drags in the religious factor. As soon as religion is
> concerned, reason seems to have gone through the back-door and caught the
> first train out of here.
Reason should accompany faith. "Come, let us reason together, says the
LORD," Isaiah 1:18; and "Test all things, hold fast that which is good," 1
Thess. 5:21. God both created the universe and inspired the Bible, so it
follows that they should be logically consistent.
> > > > What about the mercy for those working in the white house, but the plane
> > > > was crash landed before it got there?
> > >
> > > The mercy of good city planning, perhaps. I'm currently not entirely
> > > convinced the White House was really a target.
> >
> > What good city planning? Washington, D.C. was designed over 100 years
> > before the invention of the airplane. A Congressman saw one of the planes
> > circling the Capitol before it went off to hit the Pentagon. There had to
> > have been some reason why the pilot didn't crash then.
>
> Plenty of hypotheses: The terrorists and the pilots where fighting? Heroic
> passengers tried to intervene? Who knows? Only the dead did know.
True. This is still speculation.
> > > > -What about the mercy for the families who have had money donated etc.?
> > >
> > > They wouldn't need it if the attack hadn't happened, and what about those
> > > who have needed help longer?
> >
> > If the attack hadn't happened, nobody would be getting money anyway.
> > Sometimes it takes a dramatic event to jump-start people into doing
> > something.
>
> Sounds like a design-fault in men. Where is God, so I can get a bugg-fix?
Too true! You just pegged the Gospel. The fault in men is that they
rebelled against God and plunged the world into sin. The fix is God -
accepting the free offer of salvation and thus gaining entrance to His
perfect paradise.
> > > > This has to be God at work, whether you like it or not, God has shown
> > > > himself clearly in the face of tragedy.
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, I don't see God there anywhere. I see the kindness of people
> > > being unfairly credited to a non-existant being. Why is all the evil in
> > > this world credited to man, but none of the good? God sure doesn't have
> > > anything to do with my good deeds.
> >
> > The more I look at this attack, the more I see that it could have become
> > much worse in many ways, and yet it didn't. I see God's restraint
> > throughout the whole thing.
>
> Ahhh, so as long as people can say 'it could have been worse', you can
> explain that as the restraining of God, or the kindness?
True. The Christian position is that, since man is utterly sinful, it is
only through God's restraint that the unrepentant world doesn't go to Hell
right now.
> I'm glad life is as simple as that for you. That would also mean (warning:
> reason coming back) that Armageddon, when 'things can't get any worse' is
> when God finally snaps?
Exactly. God's patience reaches its limit and He removes His restraint.
> > Evil is credited to man because it can't be credited to God -- God cannot
> > commit evil. I agree that each person is responsible for his or her own
> > deeds, but I believe it is God who prompts us to do good.
>
> God = good and men = bad/evil? Again, I wish my life was as simple as that.
> But please understand me: I have nothing against religious people. Just as
> long as they don't try to enforce it on me.
God is good. Man was originally good, but through rebellion became sinful.
> Notice that I do not say 'Christians', to me all religions are the same.
> They all are a way out of the harsh reality of the every day struggle for
> survival. It is also a handy tool to explain things that men can't explain
> in any other way (yet).
> Example: a long time ago, men thought that a thunderstorm was (a) God, being
> angry at men. Nowadays, men knows that it is just natural phenomena.
> But my favorite example is the Rainbow, because I like boats.
> >
> > >
> > > Jeff
> >
> > --Ian
>
> and Mark - who did enjoy a religious back-ground but outgrew it -de Kock
and Ian again
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