General Discussion : 33215


General / 33215

My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Matthew Gerber

To my friends at LUGNET, The United States, and the rest of the world by way of sympathy, have suffered greatly this week. Here in our own little microcosm of the world, we have shared news of tradgedy and sorrow, stories of hope and survival, and (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Ian Warfield

(...) Amen! As you say, many are wondering where God is right now, or why He let this happen. I'd like to say to them that He's very much present and hard at work. We see it reflected all over: - The government could be in much worse shape. The (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Dave Schuler

(...) It's not my wish to deconstruct anyone's religion at a time like this, but I must point out that all of the evidence you cite above would likewise have been true even if He were not looking out for the Good Ol' US of A. For many, it is (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Larry Pieniazek

Without commenting on whether god had anything to do with this or not... (...) This particular one is noteworthy... you can see gods hand in it if you like, it is said he moves in mysterious ways, but the reason these towers didn't collapse right (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Chris Leach

(...) Designed my great architects,engineers(many who are AFOL's) and BUILT by skilled tradesmen/women. (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Thomas (T. J.) Avery

(...) It is amazing that the towers didn't collapse right away, and things could have certainly been much worse. As an engineer, I'll be interested in future reports that will discuss modes of failure. Typically, building design adheres strictly to (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I acknowledge this is a morbid line to go down, but.. I'm fairly sure that if the planes had had dry tanks instead of full transcontinental loads of Jet-A, the towers would still be standing... the impacts didn't do enough damage to cause the (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) That was the goal of the 1993 bombers, who hadn't thought things through nearly so completely. (...) I can't recall if it's cnn.com or cbs.com, but they interviewed five or six members of the design team who are still alive (the prime (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Rob Doucette

(...) Also, what would have been the outcome had the terrorists targeted the base of the buildings? Had the collisions occurred in the lower 20 floors, most folks would have been trapped inside, and toppling may have occurred. (...) Indeed. -Rob. (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Ross Crawford

(...) It would be *extremely* difficult to crash a 767 travelling at 500km/h at the lower 20 floors of any building in such a city. That is possibly part of the reason they chose the WTC towers - they were so much higher than surrounding buildings. (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Eric Kingsley

In lugnet.general, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) Sorry, just saw this, can't say my attention was focused on LUGNET last week... The architect of the twin towers was Minoru Yamasaki. You can read more about him and the Twin Towers here... (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Ross Crawford

(...) week... (...) Someone on a local Australian show last night brought up the notion that US buildings (including WTC) using more steel[1] may have been a factor in the collapse. I figure things got pretty hot there for a little while, so (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Chris Leach

(...) ROSCO more concrete would have not made a difference.The building withstood the impacts.The fuel melted both the steel and concrete at the point of impact which caused the floors weight above them to collapse the rest of the structure. Mafia? (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Building speculation (was: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ross Crawford

(...) concrete (...) The suggestion was not that the concrete would've survived the fire, but less of the building would've been directly involved in the fire, and maybe that little bit extra surviving support may have stopped the catastrophic (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Building speculation (was: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I'd say they're all wet. A building of that form factor and height HAD to be at least as much steel as it was. Increasing the concrete ratio would mean the building would not be able to hold up its own weight. This general theory has been (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Info about the towers and their architect —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Indeed. They made me cry again. I've been crying a lot lately. Thanks for that excellent reference, Eric. (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Mark Sandlin

(...) I'm wondering how people can maintain their faith in the face of what has just happened. If you believe God to be all-good and all-powerful, then explain to me how this kind of horrible thing is allowed to happen. And don't give me that "works (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha

Mark, I'm glad you spoke up, because I was beginning to think I might be the only one who thought this way. Although I can't speak for Mr. Sandlin, I have the same feelings as Mark wrote about, and I am an atheist. I am an archaeologist and one of (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) True; I can't say specifically why this happened. Perhaps, instead, I could offer the "evil is a mystery" cop-out? Perhaps He let this happen to shock us out of complacency. America is used to living securely and safely; contented people are (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Bill Farkas

(...) No cop-outs. The question is not, "How can you believe in God?", but, "How can you believe in man?!" God didn't do this, man did. I like how people expect God to intervene in self serving ways but they don't want Him to interfere with their (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha

(...) Who would accuse God or anyone of being too controlling if what happened could have been prevented? And who would say God is controlling in anyway now? You said yourself that bad men do bad things and some people enjoy doing bad things, god (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) We wouldn't have the perspective of knowing what came next. The accusation might potentially arise because people would not know the true magnitude of what was prevented. (...) God is not always obvious about how He intervenes. The evidence we (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha

Thank you for explaining in further detail that statement. Although I'm not sure what you mean by "We wouldn't have the perspective of knowing what came next. The accusation might potentially arise because people would not know the true magnitude of (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) You're welcome. (...) Sorry, I tried to cram too much information into too few words :). I meant to say that if God had prevented the attack, we wouldn't have appreciated its sheer horrific magnitude, since we wouldn't have lived through it. (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha

I have reconsidered, and I conclude that I feel I need to say more. I rarely have a chance to debate religion, as I come from a large Catholic family, and I'm the only one who doesn't attend church, and no one will talk about religion around me, (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ross Crawford

Hi Adam, and greetings from Australia! I don't believe in god. But for many years I thought I did, and came to realise that following god *must* be based on faith. As soon as any conclusive eveidence for his existence shows up, the whole christian (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha

Hi Ross. I would have thought if there was any conclusive evidence for the existence of god that the christian belief wouldn't crumble, but be elevated to new heights of wisdom and logic. The statement that if god exists he, is beyond our (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

I'll try to address both Adam's and Ross's posts at the same time. (...) Exactly. I believe that too. As I mentioned in my other post, I can put my hands on a huge amount of evidence for the existence of God - all circumstantial, and none of it 100% (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha

This debate is going nowhere, and no one's opinion is going to change here. But you say there is convincing evidence that there is god, and yet I have seen any. Let me put my opinion this way. I will believe that there is a god when he shows (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) Refer to the post I just put up: (URL) There is more, if you're interested. (...) You'll get your wish, eventually. When we die, we all face God. And at the end of the age, God will descend from Heaven in glory to set up His kingdom on earth. (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ross Crawford

(...) Yes, I re-read that and realised it wasn't a good description of my belief. Perhaps closer: "...he instantly loses all his followers, *from his point of view*, because they no longer have to make any choice to follow him." (...) I agree with (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) Okay. But this is what I say about the faith issue: God wants us to follow Him by faith. If you have absolute proof, you remove the faith option. (...) Okay. But the universe had to be initiated by something, and if it wasn't God, what was it? (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Larry Pieniazek

(...) If you had been spending time reviewing past debates here you'd see that this question has been dealt with before. (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) Great! My prayer worked! You reconsidered! (...) Sorry to hear that. Hopefully, we can accommodate you. (By the way, I'm Protestant, so I may share some of your concerns with Catholicism.) (...) LOL. Who said that? (...) All religions are (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha

(...) Colby from Survivor 2. (...) Mark said: The Kindness Of Man. Please, give credit where credit is due, and don't shortchange the good people. You said: All goodness derives from God, but this is a technicality in this instance :). So what did (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) Ack! No, don't tell me that Reality TV has provided *anything* pithy! (...) And, remember, if God created all and is omnipotent, God also created evil and possesses the power to destroy it at any time. Evil is not merely the absence of good. (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) See (URL) for a start. Incidentally, Jesus was God in the flesh, and we have the recorded history right in the Bible. <snip> (...) Possibly so. But then the hijackers would be making the accusations. God loves even them so much that He does (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) Sorry, that's not recorded history. It's a literary chronicle--"history" as we know it today was part of the Greco-Roman tradition, not the Judaeo-Christian one. That, and the synoptic gospels have significant problems innate to their (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) I'm not clear on the difference. Anyway, the Gospels were written in Greek, from within the Roman Empire. (...) These are faith issues. They can't be "proven" either way. (...) If the books were divinely inspired, then they aren't embellished. (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

I neglected to respond to this... (...) God did not create evil. Evil is indeed the absence of good, just as cold is the absence of heat, and centrifugal force is the absence of centripetal force. --Ian (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) Sorry, if God created everything, God created evil--at least, the capacity for it. Are you implying there are limits to the power of God? Also, good and evil are subjective concepts, arrived at by consensus--though in dogmatic (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) This is the key distinction. God created beings with free will, but free will necessitates the possibility of rebellion. God created the universe with the possibility of evil. This is not the same thing as creating evil itself. He allows it, (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

The god debate again... sigh^h^h^h^h yawn —Larry Pieniazek

(...) You're wandering into the "Can god make a stone so large he cannot lift it?" thicket. Here there be tygers. I note you did not address my previous post on "Why this discussion now? Did you do your homework before starting?" but just ignored (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The god debate again... sigh^h^h^h^h yawn —Ian Warfield

(...) Indeed. I would say that there is no answer to this question, because it's a logical contradiction. God can lift anything He wants, and God can make anything He wants. But God wouldn't set out with the express purpose of making a stone too big (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Ian Warfield

(...) Oh dear. Let me start over. God is good, and there is no evil or sin in him. God created everything, so therefore everything reflects God's goodness in some way. People doing good things don't do it because of their innate goodness; they (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Jason J. Railton

(...) So, here's how I like to see it. If God started everything off, what if He let it play out - what if He wasn't sticking His oar in every five minutes? What if we really do have free will, for a start? Who wants to live in a universe where you (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Ian Warfield

(...) God reserves the right to engineer events, but He makes sure to allow us to maintain our free will. Anyway it's God's universe; He can do what He wants with it. (...) You have that choice. The tree of knowledge was placed in the Garden of Eden (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) You're not getting it. Maybe there were 10^37 (or whatever) universal incarnations that had nothing like us occur. That's fine. You're arguing that a probability that doesn't actually have any bearing on our likelihood, does. I'm sorry, but (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Dave Schuler

(...) Yes indeed. Another way to approach it is to point out that we (life in general) weren't running around looking for a universe to populate and were lucky enough to find this one; we (again, life in general) arose within this universe because (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Does God Exist? (was Re: Mercy? (was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)) —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Might that be because you don't play? That's *usually* my reason for not winning, although once in a while (when the expected value (of the net present value of the win after taxes) >100% of the cost to play) it is because the gods don't like (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

The Origins Debate —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) It's not nearly so cranky as many of the others, but it's still largely based on anti-logic. Why can't it be the Hindu gods? Or why can't the Hare Krishnas be right? (...) But the physical state of the universe was quite different. We're in a (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Larry Pieniazek

(...) <snip> Excellent refutation. If Ian had been doing his homework reading what has been said here before maybe he wouldn't be posting essentially the same tired stuff all over again that we've all already heard. If people want to take comfort in (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) Yeh, well, it's never for me so much as for the spectators. :D (...) My only search for common ground is to get the agreement that yes, belief in religion is a matter of faith and is therefore unprovable positively *or* negatively. My aim, if (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Spot on. I have no beef with religion or any other dogma except when it obstructs progress. (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Kirby Warden

(...) I think that this is the stance I have been leaning towards the past year or so. I feel rather lonely in church these days as I no longer "see" as the majority of the congregation seems to. Blind faith ("dogma" I suppose) seems to work at (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Bill Farkas

(...) As a Christian, I agree that if many so-called Christian leaders had their way we'd all be almost Amish. As I've said before, I believe it's because most Christians are guilt-motivated. They really don't know what to think and as such are (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Ian Warfield

(...) If that's a backhanded concession of any sort, I'll take it. :) Another good site is www.swordandspirit.com. It's chock full of humor - about as far from cranky as you can yet. (...) I don't see this. Can you cite an example? (...) At this (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I don't understand this argument. Everything science proposes is theory (hypothesis, actually). It never goes beyond that. Everything science determines is a tentative explanation, pending better. It is not valid to claim that "evolution is (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Ian Warfield

(...) That's exactly what I meant. It wasn't an argument; I was just restating the fact that evolution is, indeed, a theory. (...) I wasn't claiming that it necessarily would. I was merely guarding against the possibility of anyone claiming it as (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Dave Schuler

(...) To be more precise, evolution is a fact, just as gravity is a fact. The Darwinian model of natural selection is an evolutionary theory--that is, a theory that hopes to explain the process by which the fact of evolution occurs. (...) But no one (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Ian Warfield

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes: <snip> (...) Let me restate my position this way: FACT: Many, many species exist and have existed on Earth. The first species which appeared were very simple, single-celled organisms, without nuclei. (...) (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins "Debate" —Dave Low

(...) There is more evidence around than just the fossil record though. For instance, my work involves comparing DNA sequences from different organisms. We can measure the differences between sequences, and draw a tree or nested set describing how (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Dave Schuler

|In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Ian Warfield writes: | |>Let me restate my position this way: | |>The theory of evolution states that these organisms developed of their own |>accord, by means of spontaneous, large-scale genetic mutations in a (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —James Simpson

(...) Dave!: Here we come to the great defeater of your argument: The existence of Baseball is final and convincing proof that a Loving and Good God does in fact exist. I defy you to postulate any theoretical universe in which Baseball, in all its (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Origins Debate —Dave Schuler

(...) I'm not a particular fan of baseball, but even I am amazed that the Pirates have seemed somehow to lose more games this year than everyone else in the league combined. What especially steams me is that Pittsburgh in its infinite, (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)

Re: The Origins Debate —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) While the existence of Baseball may be an unarguable proof of God, I feel that I must point out that unfortantely, the Dodgers are an unarguable proof of the existence of the Devil (some might argue that the Yankees are actually the proof of (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)

Re: The Origins Debate —Dave Schuler

(...) Wasn't he implicated in the Applegate scandal a few years back? Dave! FUT OT.Alleged-Humor (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)

Re: The Origins Debate —Larry Pieniazek

(...) No, it is proof that the universe is in fact random, if not actually cruel and malevolent. Why else would such an ultimately boring game fascinate so many? (including me) (...) And if you REALLY want proof of no justice, consider the Tigers. (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)

Re: The Origins Debate —James Simpson

(...) Ah, but here we have merely the inscrutability of Divine Wisdom. Presumably God foreknew that a universe with baseball, in sum totality of its joys and many despairs, would be an inherently better state of affairs than a universe without (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)

Re: The Origins Debate —Ross Crawford

(...) Baseball (...) Perhaps they just bounce too much.... ROSCO (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Mark Sandlin

(...) Then how can anyone say that God has been merciful. Mercy implies participation. If God isn't participating, then he couldn't have been merciful. (...) What does that have to do with anything I've talked about? I thought the discussion was (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Bill Farkas

(...) My point was that He never obligated Himself to intervene in every circumstance. But He is very active. As some have said, it could have been much worse. Two planes were prevented from hitting their targets. The Pentagon was hit in it's least (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Jeff Stembel

(...) I thought he was supposed to be good, and love us all. I wouldn't let one of my loved ones be hurt or killed if I could prevent it, and since God is omnipotent, he CAN prevent such tragedies. So why does he not? I can only think of two (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) But God may have another reason. He may want to use these tragedies to cause people to search for Him. He may also want to warn America against future possible terrorist attacks, which may be even worse than this was. If we are alerted to this (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Dave Schuler

(...) When you make that non-falsifiable assertion, you are presumably implying that We Cannot Know His Ineffable Plan, and therefore we must assume that everything will work out for Good. However, if We Cannot Know His Plan, then we certainly can't (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) True. This assertion is based on faith more than fact. (To clarify, the following is one of Jeff's paragraphs, not mine; and I addressed it in my previous post.) (...) Additionally, I'm Protestant, so I too look with skepticism at some of the (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Some of us would rather see you expend your energy in reviewing what came before rather than rehashing. Everything you've said has been said before in some previous incarnation of this debate, so don't think you're adding any new value or (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Dave Schuler

(...) Let's be honest about this--it's *entirely* based on faith, and not at all on fact. And that's where the issue ends, for many people. (...) Yes and no. They are capable of presenting a faithful account of their own recollections and of their (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) The "fact" side of this argument is based on Biblical "fact", but it requires "faith" to trust that what is in the Bible is indeed "fact". I suppose I can condede your point. (...) I can think of only two miracles that were not personally (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Dave Schuler

(...) Sorry--your knowledge of scripture is more complete than mine. I'll need to re-check my sources. (...) That's not a bad point, but it is a fundamental sticking point for some people. The notion that the OT was a book predicting Christ's (...) (23 years ago, 20-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) What about all the OT miracles, then? Leaving the NT aside for the moment, the OT predicted many events that also took place in the OT. <snip> (...) But Jesus's miracles are those which don't leave very much wiggle room. The healing miracles, (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Dave Schuler

(...) That is, by definition, circular reasoning. I predict that I will attach my name at the bottom of my post--that doesn't make it prophesy. My point is that the Bible is *in no way* adequate confirmation of its own supernatural claims, and there (...) (23 years ago, 25-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Larry Pieniazek

(...) <snip> (...) Wow. A miracle! The Church of Larritarianism IS accepting applications for prophets, if you're interested. Entrance exam is way less strict than, say, the Church of the SubGenius. And for all you other sinners out there, we also (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Dave Schuler

(...) In the biz, I believe that's called a wide Prophet Margin. (...) You had me up until this part--sounds too much like Amway or Scientology (the latter of which is certainly and irrefutably a religion, and not in any way a cult dreamed up by a (...) (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Dave Schuler

(...) The reason is that man acts to benefit man in countless, demonstrable, and tangible ways daily, while this alleged "God" of your has sat on His Divine Butt for two millennia or more without so much as a peep (unless we include the wholly (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Geordan Hankinson

Everything has a purpose, whether we see that purpose in a few days, a year, ten years, or even a century, God has a reason for everything. The reason could be very suttle, it could be realised by only a few people, or there could be a number of (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Adam Murtha

Geordan, you talk about all this 'mercy' but as far I as I know there have been 5 survivors found and still about 5000 missing or dead. Would you call that mercy? I won't. And the plane 'missing' the white house to hit the Pentagon and kill about (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) You forget that the World Trade Center has a capacity of 50,000. For whatever reason - they were not at work yet, they were able to evacuate, or they were rescued - 45,000 people were not killed. (...) Mercy in a different sense. If the plane (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Jeff Stembel

(...) Ah-ha! I see! God wants us to kill these evil people! Is that it? Maybe His plan is to bring the nation and world together? Please, we are coming together to do only two things: help those who have lost family/friends/property in the attack (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) Coming together to help those affected by the attack is a good thing. It fosters a humble, generous spirit. (...) The response would probably not have been as dramatic or as widespread. Sometimes it takes a shattering tragedy to shock people (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Mark de Kock

Okay, I'm going to jump onto this one just this once... (...) No God in there if you're not a religious person. (...) And all good religious people know this and STILL need this tragical event to wake them up? (...) Whe quoting the bible, everyone (...) (23 years ago, 19-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Ian Warfield

(...) Granted. (...) Yes, unfortunately. Jesus warns against complacency and losing heart. Being human, we fall short all the time. It could be for the nonreligious people also. A tragedy like this forces many to reevaluate their priorities in life (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer) —Jeff Stembel

(...) Don't forget that this was done in His name. And since an evil deed was done in His name and he did not stop it, I cannot see how God can be kind and merciful in any way. Jeff (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Matthew Gerber

O.K...I fully intended to post just the one thing today, and let the chips fall where they may...I knew I shouldn't have even looked back at LUGNET until tomorrow...I knew people would get into it over my bringing up God at a time like this...you (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) Don't be. I'm glad you did. Personally, even though I'm not a Christian, I'm glad people find comfort in their faiths. It's still an act of human communion--all religion has a basis in people coming together for worship--and that in itself is (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Steve Chapple

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Matthew Gerber writes: <snipped all but one line> (...) While I don't concur with some of your reasoning behind what you believe, I wanted to thank you for your "Prayer posting" and for the tribute page - both are (...) (23 years ago, 17-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Matthew Gerber

(...) Fox News Channel has been replaying the mass in its entirety since it happened...if you have access to them on satellite/cable, I'd check them late night tonight...also, try stations like EWTN and the like, I don't watch them, but it seems (...) (23 years ago, 18-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer —Matthew Gerber

(...) WHOOPS! Forgot things: Also, isn't it great that you DON'T have to agree with my view of faith? 8?) Oh, and you're welcome... Matt (23 years ago, 18-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)