Subject:
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Re: Mercy? (Was Re: My Prayer on this National Day of Prayer)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 16 Sep 2001 03:06:14 GMT
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Viewed:
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908 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Adam Murtha writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bill Farkas writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mark Sandlin writes:
> > > In article <GJo2MB.Lp4@lugnet.com>, "Ian Warfield" <ipw47@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > As you say, many are wondering where God is right now, or why He let this
> > > > happen.
> > >
> > > I'm wondering how people can maintain their faith in the face of what
> > > has just happened. If you believe God to be all-good and all-powerful,
> > > then explain to me how this kind of horrible thing is allowed to happen.
> > > And don't give me that "works in mysterious ways" cop-out.
> >
> > No cop-outs. The question is not, "How can you believe in God?", but, "How
> > can you believe in man?!" God didn't do this, man did. I like how people
> > expect God to intervene in self serving ways but they don't want Him to
> > interfere with their "fun." If God were to intervene in such ways, some
> > would accuse Him of being too controlling. Bad men chose to do a bad thing.
> > Some people enjoy doing bad things. God has never made a promise obligating
> > Himself to intervene in such instances. He has given *us* freedom to choose.
> > This has nothing to do with His goodness. We tainted His perfect creation by
> > our sin. Your question is a cop-out, and is as old as the hills. Pain and
> > suffering are man's fault not God's.
>
> Who would accuse God or anyone of being too controlling if what happened
> could have been prevented?
We wouldn't have the perspective of knowing what came next. The accusation
might potentially arise because people would not know the true magnitude of
what was prevented.
> And who would say God is controlling in any way now? You said yourself that
> bad men do bad things and some people enjoy doing bad things, god never made
> a promise to intervene, god has given us freedom etc. How would that be
> considered controlling in any way, or what is he doing to be controling even
> a little bit? What is he doing then?
God is not always obvious about how He intervenes. The evidence we cite is
circumstantial, and not conclusive, but it can be attributed to God working
behind the scenes.
> I'm not religious so please explain how we tainted his perfect creation?
> What perfect creation? And if we've tainted this perfect creation of his why
> doesn't he just 'clean up' and hit every building with a 767 jumbo jet?
A couple of theological postulates need to be stated here:
1. Originally, God created everything good. There was no sin.
2. God created man with the primary purpose of having a loving relationship
with Him. As God wanted a reciprocal relationship, He gave man free will to
love Him back. Free will was necessary to allow true love, and not just
mindless robotic obedience.
3. Man chose to exercise his free will in rejecting God. This has become
known as original sin. Because of this first sin, Adam and Eve contaminated
themselves with a sinful nature. Since everyone is descended from them,
everyone shares in this sinful nature.
4. God, being perfect, cannot be in the direct presence of sin. His holy
nature demands that sin be eradicated and punished. From (3), all humanity is
under this curse.
5. Despite (4), God still wants a relationship with man. To get around the
penalty for sin, He sent Jesus to pay the penalty in lieu of us. If we have
faith in Him, we are reinstated into our original relationship. We are
granted a full, free, and absolute pardon.
6. Jesus was qualified to do this because a) He was God, and therefore had the
authority; b) He was human, and therefore could apply His coverage to us; and
c) He was sinless, and thus did not have to pay His own penalty. {Jesus got
around the obstacle of sinful nature affecting the entire human race (3)
because His biological father was God. Apparently, sin is only passed down
through the father.}
7. Our entire life is a grace period in which we choose whether to accept His
pardon. If not for this grace period, we would be immediately condemned
because of humanity's inherent sinful nature (3). If we accept the pardon, we
are reinstated (Heaven; 2, 5). If not, we are removed from God's presence and
punished (Hell; 4).
If God were to "clean up" immediately, the grace period would be over (7).
He patiently allows humanity to remain on Earth in order that they have as much
time as possible to make their decision.
> And what about the people all over the world and through history fighting over
> religion?
Man may choose to reject God's plan and invent his own religion(s). When
any of these different religions clash, conflicts erupt. Overzealous
behavior can also blind people; c.f. current hostility toward Muslims
despite "Love thy
neighbor".
>
> > > > I'd like to say to them that He's very much present and hard at
> > > > work.
> > >
> > > Hmph.
> > >
> > > > We see it reflected all over:
> > >
> > > No we don't. I see PEOPLE coming together and helping.
> >
> > That's funny, I saw PEOPLE hijack and crash those planes. I also saw three
> > plane loads of PEOPLE sit by and "allow" those planes to be hijacked and
> > crashed (the fourth didn't).
>
> Yes, see your own statement about how bad people do bad things and god
> doesn't do anything about it. What point are you trying to make? There are
> people and country's who are trying to repair damage done by sick and
> twisted people, and I use the term people lightly as to me people would mean
> that those responsible deserve basic rights that all people have, like
> living a peaceful life, and not having a highjacked plane to crash into your
> place of work. And I'm shocked that you would say that people 'allowed'
> highjackers to take control of the plane. Where you there? Do you know how
> it all exaclty happened? I don't think anyone does yet. Maybe they were
> all busy praying to their god when the terrorists started killing
> passengers. Maybe they were scared and couldn't do anything? Do you know?
> Please share?
"Allow" is probably the wrong word to use (which may be why it's in quotes).
The other three groups of people didn't know what would happen, so they
apparently just stayed put. The people on the fourth plane may have been
spurred to action because they phoned their families and found out about the
previous attacks.
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > Let's be thankful for His mercy during such a tragedy.
> > >
> > > What mercy? Where is the mercy for:
> > >
> > > -All the victims of the crashes
> >
> > If the next life can be said to be better than this, there it is. Same below.
> >
> > >
> > > -The people who worked in the WTC
> > >
> > > -The missing rescue workers
> > >
> > > -The American Muslims who are being Persecuted in the Christian God's
> > > name.
> >
> > Who said it was in the name of the Christian's God? It wasn't me.
In any case, persecution in the name of the Christian God is wrong. Jesus
said, "Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I fail to see any evidence of God's mercy. I only see evidence of people
> > > whose lives have been destroyed and changed forever.
> > >
> > > I have the utmost respect for all those who have risen to help. But I
> > > have no respect for a God who would allow this to happen.
> >
> > Have you intervened to prevent every foul deed you have witnessed or new was
> > happening?
> >
> > I didn't think so.
> >
> > So, you yourself "allow" things to transpire that you do nothing to stop?
> > Hmmm. Why is that? Therein lies your answer.
>
> And what about yourself? If you were on one of those planes would you have
> become the hero of the nation? Fought all of the terrorists with knives or
> other weapons? To me it sounds like you would, or you would have seen what
> had tranpired from the Batcave and jumped into your Batmobile and race to
> save the day. Or would have you began to pray to your god?
You misinterpret his point. He was not highlighting anyone's failure to do
anything, he was pointing out that just as humans do not intervene in every
situation, neither does God. The reason may be different, but the
comparison is valid.
>
> > It's convenient and easy to blame God because then you won't have to face
> > the deeper issues.
>
> And what issues do those who don't blame god face?
They face the same ones. The underlying issues in either case are the
postulates stated above. People who blame God may do so because they don't
want to consider that there may be a larger picture beyond the one that they
can immediately see.
>
> >
> > >
> > > ~Grand Admiral Muffin Head
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > Just plain Bill
--Ian
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