 | | Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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Hey everybody, There really aren't adequate words to describe the events of the past few days, but I would urge all of you to click the link below and read all the articles under the heading: "Reactions to the Terror." They are the only rational and (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) fanatics need to understand 'Don't mess with us, or we'll take you down permanently'. Right now, we're a laughing stock in Iraq because Saddam is still doing as he pleases. Is this fair or right? Nope. Think about the last time he stepped out (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) OK. I just can't let this go. Its absolutely absurd to say things like this! (...) This sounds pretty similar to "No jews=supreme Aryan state" to me. (...) Who are you threatening to "take down"? Some random muslim perhaps? Or maybe the whole (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Correction: Terrorists are *made.* They're not born that way. It takes a *lot* of perceived injustice for someone to cross that line. If we want to stop terrorism, we have two choices: understanding and the rule of law or militarization and (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Yeah, me too. I stand with my countrymen who also stand for peace. If we succumb to reacting from our passions rather than acting out of reason and love for our fellows then we have lost everything already. If our brothers and sisters on this (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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I'm going into Manhattan now. I've been working most of the night on my little part of restoring normalcy. I'm seething mad this morning. Who is my anger directed against? It's not directed at my Muslim co-workers, whom I expect to have lunch with, (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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Richard, what specifically are the other ideas? You are being vague. What are you expecting to postpone? This is a life and death matter. There will be another attack. (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) it does? saying that we need to kill someone who _says_ they want to kill us, and _have_actually_ acted so in the past is the same as killing someone just because they prey/act differently? Not in my mind. (...) uh, where did he even mention (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) exactly. well said. Dan (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Sure. Create more martyrs. Great Idea. This sounds like the Israeli model to deal with terrorists. Does it work for them? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Gee, I hate to go all warm and fuzzy on you... ...but how about we give peace a chance? <3 -- Hop-Frog (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) I have to think that you are tired, emotionally distraught, and simply not thinking straight -- because otherwise that is the scariest foreign policy I have ever seen publically expressed. You know, I am not at all happy about what has (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Yeah, and how exactly do we give peace a chance? What does that mean, just keep waving our fingers at these groups and the governments that fund, train, harbor, and protect them? Take it on the chin again and ask one government or another to (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) And which government do you think has funded them and trained them? Which country's special forces trained Bin Laden in military and guerilla tactics? Which country trained the Iraqi troops? Which nation provides the most funds to the IRA? (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Israel has been doing the exact thing the US has been, which is not working - limited responce. They bomb a street, Israel attacks a command post. They shoot at a schoolbus, Israel takes out a training camp. It's the _limiting_ of that (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Bin Laden was a part of the Mujahedin guerilla, fighting the Soviet troops as they tried to invade Afghanistan. Key members of the Mujahedin guerilla where trained by the CIA, and rather successfully, too. They did hold off the Soviet troops (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Well they need to be more limited. (...) ...and kill some women and children (...) So you think South Africa should have murdered the ANC, not do a deal with them? (...) Well what good is your inpute? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) The limiting of the response limits the cost of committing these acts acceptable. Make the cost unacceptable, and the people willing to commit them will decrease, either through their own choices, or by the choices of their neighbors who don't (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) We gave peace a chance. Then two commercial airliners hit the twin WTC buildings. If you are suggesting we forget about it and "give peace a chance", hoping peace prevails and nothing happens again...thats downright confusing to me. We are not (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Just in case you didn't notice "they" (terrorists) just made Martyrs out of thousands of people on 09/11/2001. That was as much a mistake for them as it was for Japan to attack Pearl Harbor 12/07/1941. We have Martyrs too and we will take (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) We do not share the same understanding of the term "martyr". (...) Then what? Will the deaths continue in Iraq and Israel? Will globalisation continue to exploit those in the developing world? Should we nurture despair? Should we live in fear? (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) you can have you opinion, I can have mine. (...) and that's a terrible thing. However, I hate to ask, why were women and children in a terrorist command post? The only reason I can think of is that the terrorists are trying to hide behind a (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Nope. Just saying what I feel right now. Absurd is hijacking jets with the intent to run them into office buildings. My response is certainly not absurd in light of this act. (...) Not at all. It's more like 'no misguided Aryans=no Aryan (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Let's see...1993-attempted bombing of WTC. Our Response: give peace a chance. 1999-twin bombing of US Embassys in Africs Our response: give peace a chance. 2000-The wanton destruction of the USS Cole Our Response: give peace a chance. (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) I'll admit it. I was tired. I'll assume that it was close to 3am when I posted it. I know it was later than 10pm. And by 'Take them all down', I am referring to terrorists, not Muslims. (...) My solution is no more radical then that which was (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Same here, Dan. As a student of history, I've always said two things-History always repeats itself and a limited war is a lost cause. Why is Israel having problems with terrorist activities? Because they won't deal with the problem. The keep (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Obviously... (...) Much of this sounds like jibber jabber. As for preparing out children for future attacks I think we need to prepare them for the fact that this is a reality in the world and we are going to fight it. That means more people (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) I agree that terrorists are made, but what exactly makes them? You claim they have perceived injustices against them. I keep hearing them referring to us as devils. We buy their products, offer aid, preach peace and still find terrorists (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Peace! (was Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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Dave: I think some of you may be confusing "give peace a chance" with doing absolutely nothing and taking it on the chin. I am not advocating that at all. I absolutely think it's time we take a long hard look at the air transportation industry and (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Okay. But what part of the fact that they are willing to die for their cause didn't you get? Did you have some other worse punishment in mind? Tuesday's events were not brought on by a few moments passion -- but rather by the dreadful (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) D0 you actually have a plan, a suggested approach? I must have missed it. Or are you just spewing hate, as usual? ++Lar (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) I get that. I wonder how willing they are for their friends and family to die as a result of their despicable acts? (...) I don't care about understanding them. I care about making the people who train them, the people who house them, the (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) so. This attitude *will* result in escalation of violence and the deaths of more innocent people. (...) They were more likely people who had been taught to see Americans as the ultimate enemy. Murderous they may have been, but they weren't (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) and _have_actually_ acted so in the past is the same as killing someone just because they prey/act differently? Not in my mind. (...) Yes, I put words in Davids mouth, it was way over the top. I apologise. (...) somehow, would you not think (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) deal (...) I agree, but I'm probably not thinking about the same problem as you are. The problem in Gaza is a problem of preceived land ownership, not terrorism. (...) army (...) and (...) And murdered many innocent Iraqis in the process. (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Actually, it's a combination of the two, but I won't split hairs on this one. (...) That were being used as human shields and no, it doesn't sound familiar. Saddam kept hiding. QWB was quite public about where he's been. GWB wasn't anywhere (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Very true. The American public certainly didn't wan war on September 10th. Diabolic acts of wanton destruction and the tragic sacrifce of thousands of innocents has changed our collective mind. 92% of the American public support the idea of (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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This is a response to random acts of absolute disinformation perpetrated by many in the discussion of Arab terrorism, of what our response should be, and the Palestinian plight - and whatever else spues forth from my inability to contain myself any (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) < (...) So that makes it OK to murder them? (...) Weren't several thousand (est) innocent Americans just murdered for the pursuit of a (as yet unknown) goal? ROSCO (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) NP. I did come off harshly, so that is understandable. (...) 'we'll take you down permanently' means that we'll go to any lengths to protect our freedoms, even killing terrorists if it comes down to it. Personally, I feel that this is a case (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Jeez, you're willing to go a long way for the sake of equivocation. If they are being used as human shields, then the people using them as shields are responsible for their deaths. So, no--it's not okay to murder them, and the people using (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Peace! (was Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) Good. We've done enough of that already, and frankly I'm tired of it. (...) Agreed. Security is a large issue here. My brother-in-law work for Delta Airlines and I could tell you some amazing stries about lax security, but I don't see any (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) murder (...) cross (...) Not the same thing at all. Something closer would be if you buy a baseball bat...and kill me with it you are no more guilty than if you take that same bat and keep swinging it at a pile of baseballs when you know (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) <snipped your reply to Richard> Regardless, we can all agree that killing the innocent for the sins of the leadership is wrong. Our attackers demonized Americans and committed a brutal criminal act that shattered the lives of many innocent (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Please make a donation via Paypal to the Red Cross!
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I am sure that most of us received the following message from Paypal If possible, please make a donation, even the smallest amounts count. There will always be someone in need who could use everthing possible right now. I am just about to donate (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Better or worse I will not comment on. I think your example is inapplicable to this situation, but I did want to point out that american law, at any rate, distinguishes between these cases... driving drunk and killing someone is negligent (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) I don't think anyone is saying we should kill innocents. Official statements refer to "those responsible". However, regrettably some collateral damage is unavoidable. As a side note: when did this notion of "killing the innocent" in war arise? (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) A lot has been picked over in terms of the rhetoric of peace, so fine...Does the euphemism "collateral damage" mean human lives? How can you be so callous? Aren't we in hell already? (...) What does "historically theirs" mean? I'd like an (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) Not callous, realistic. War is messy. Some bullets/bombs go astray. I'm not saying it's acceptable - just true. Every death is a tragedy. A deeper tragedy is that men choose evil and cause death needlessly. (...) huh? (...) At a specific time (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) The declaration of war on the Barbary Pirates seems to have been constitutional... it's the closest analogue to a declaration of war on "terrorists", I'd say. Our borders were attacked and in this day and age that may require force projection (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) I don't have a problem with a short and sweet black ops kinda thing executed with as close to surgical precision as we can get. I would prefer capture to killing for a variety reasons (i.e. no martyrs, we stay stainless before the world, (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Yes. (...) Indeed you have. (...) Larry I hate no one. I read your post on this issue and i see hate. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy
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(...) Take a look at you foreign policy again. (...) Education is also required in the west. (...) But what about the terrorists that the USA has harbored and helped in the past? What about them? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) let me add to this then - there has _always_ been a jewish settlement in Israel. Way before 1948. And since the late the 1880s, there has been a secular-jewish settlemens in Israel as well. So the UN did not give "a third group" a land that (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) Didn't those folks actually go in and buy land from people who they sincerely and with good foundation believed to be the rightful owners at the time (1) rather than settle lands from which the previous owners had been evicted, which is the (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) This is what the Romans did to Israel. So which claim is legitimate then? Israel's or the Palestinians? (...) From the governed, do they not? Either by consent or by conceding. At any rate, the governed allow what becomes. (...) But what would (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) [snip] (...) From whence does the 'legitimate ownership' of property arise? I say there is no such thing. Chris (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) I can see the argument. But... No matter what? What is the alternative, though? Property belongs to whoever has the bigger gun? (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) It's a nice idea, but since this is a 'War on Terrorism' and terrorist keep popping up where they aren't wanted, it's time to bear down for an extended game of 'Whack a Mole'. (tounge in check, but an interesting visual for me) (...) Well, (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) Actually, I think the notion of ownership of real estate is corrupt not only because we can't possibly track it back to an original "fair" owner and then trace it forward to who ought to own it (for the most part), but also because I think (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) And given that metaphor I fail to see why it's a good idea. The need for vengeance will wear thin, and reality will set in. I insist that given a possibly impossible task, we should look for longer-lasting alternatives to war. And a lot of (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) You don't specifically state this, but it seems the suggestion is that Koresh was a terrorist. You do know that that's incorrect, don't you? And further, that he (and his) was(were) victimized by the US people -- rather than the other way (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) C'mon, you have it all wrong!!! We don't go around doing bad things. We are the "good guys." And anyway, the U.S. Government co-signed it so that makes it okay... ...its "US" (U.S.?) or "THEM", right? -- Hop-Frog (who sips his Ruby Ridge over (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) I never claimed it was a good idea. I'm just pointing out that no good ideas have spung from this. We've proven in the past that quick surgical strikes slow the problem down, but don't stop it simply because zealots are willing to use their (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) No, I make the suggestion that Koresh and his followers were fanatics. You don't have to be a terrorist to be fanatical. I'm pointing out that misguided religious folk make excellent fanatics. Give people what they want, and they will follow (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy)
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(...) No, we just put a spin on it to make it look like we do. (...) Yep, apparently that's what it now is. (...) -Dave (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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